Jan. 10, 2022

Wherein I confuse OSI with ISO [#PodAudit]

8th Layer Insights is a podcast about humans and cybersecurity. It's hosted by author and industry celebrity Perry Carpenter. In today's episode, Perry has submitted his podcast for a #PodAudit. We'll talk about his audio quality, his artwork, his title and description, and some other things.

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Podcasting Sucks is a property of Tanner Campbell Consulting, LLC. Other properties under the Tanner Campbell Consulting brand include Retold Myths and Tales, Practical Stoicism, The Guthtaigh Studio, and the Pysma Learning Platform.

Tanner Campbell	00:00
Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. And welcome to episode 117 of Podcasting Sucks. My name is Tanner.

You know what your name is and it's time for another hashtag pod audit Monday. Ooh, I brought the segment back. Ah, that means some of you responded actually a lot of you responded. So I think I've got a lot of pod audits that I'm going to stick with for every Monday, have quite a number of upcoming Podcasting Sucks episodes. Thank you for that.

Before we get started, this podcast is sponsored by indie drop-in and I would insist absolutely insist, especially if you are in the horror genre, the true crime comedy or otherwise paranormal or scary podcasting, which I said otherwise, and comedy isn't neither one of those things, but it's an outlier. It's a little bit of an outlier comedy in that list of genres. If you're one of those genres, you've got to go to Indy drop-in dot com forward slash creators and apply to be featured as a show on the indie drop-in program. If you don't remember what it was from the last time I talked about it, essentially your episode just gets plunked into an already popular episode of the same genre in the indie drop-in network. And so an episode of yours, a full episode gets played to an already qualified audience that likes that content.

And you may find that you get a lot of new listeners from that drop in. So again, go to Indy drop-in dot com forward slash creators and check it out. If those genres apply to you in this episode, we're going to feature a hashtag pod audits with Perry carpenter host of the eighth layer insights podcast. And that is up next. Perry is a previous guest on the podcast.

You may remember that he was featured in a hashtag MAPT or meta podcast or Thursday episode. He hosts a podcast called eighth layer insights. And if you recall from the conversation or in this case, if you don't, it's a podcast, all about the seven layers of the ISO model. You can Google that if you want. Actually, it's not about those seven layers.

It's about an eighth layer, which is rarely talked about. And that eighth layer is human beings. The person between the chair and the keyboard and that human being is almost always the cause of whatever is going wrong with a computer. And so Perry show A-player insights explores the psychology of people from an it perspective and from a philosophy and psychology perspective to discover how we might train ourselves to make better decisions. We're going to hear a two-minute snippet of Perry's podcast, eighth layer insights.

But before that, I'm going to go through the things that you can't see, like the description and the artwork. We're going to talk a little bit about both of those. And here we go, get ready for a deep dive into what cybersecurity professionals often refer to as the eighth layer of security humans. This podcast is a multidisciplinary exploration into how the complexities of human nature effect security and risk author security researcher, behavior science, enthusiast, Perry, carpenter, taps experts for their insights and illumination topics include cybersecurity, psychology, behavior, science, communication, leadership, and more. I do feel Perry that the end, the last bit of that description kind of suddenly drops off.

I think it would be cool to have an invite in there that says something like with the wide spectrum of experts pulled from every episode is new and interesting. And I invite you to join us, ending it with an invitation like that. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, it's totally off the top of my head, but I think something like that would be a softer ending because this description ends a little abruptly. Now, other than that, I think that you've got a pretty good description here. What I would like to see is the use of the term cybersecurity, maybe one or two more times, I think.

So, for example, you say a deep dive into what cybersecurity professionals often refer to as the eighth layer of security. Maybe you could say of cybersecurity or of it security. You also say author security researcher and behavior science enthusiast, maybe author cybersecurity and computer security researcher, something like that because the only real keyword that is present in this description right now, unless I'm missing something is two uses of the term cyber security. And I think there's a chance that somebody might be interested in this podcast if they were just searching for it podcasts, or maybe even information technology, although most people in it wouldn't refer to it that way. So maybe try to find another word that is something, someone who would benefit from this podcast would search for and find a way to include it in that description.

I don't think that's make or break I'm nitpicking here. I do think that this is a good description. I just think he could stand with a little bit of a softer ending and maybe a key word or two more than it currently has now moving on from the artwork. I have a little bit more feedback. I do like the aesthetic of this artwork.

I think that if I'm an it person, if I'm a tech guy, I like the artwork behind the infinity sign and the L I abbreviation. So for those of you who can't see this, the background of Perry's artwork is this very kind of psychedelic, but in a space universe kind of way, there are some, almost like a Nebula that's dark and color in the background. And then there's this swirling bit of, I don't know, cyber security purple ribbon. Like it's hard to explain, but it looks technical. It looks like something you might see in a X-Box commercial or a Microsoft high tech security commercial.

Like it fits visually in the bottom left-hand corner. It says CW, which is of course the brand under which Perry is releasing the podcast and right in the center, there's an infinity symbol stood upright like in eight and then L capital L and I lowercase. I, so it's a infinity sign as an eight L I, for me, Perry, I don't think there's anything wrong. This artwork. I don't think it's ugly.

I don't think that it's not eye catching, but I don't think it's doing one thing that artwork is supposed to do. And that's set an expectation. Remember when somebody comes across your podcast, if they're searching for it specifically, they don't give a shit about the artwork. They already know they're looking for it. And so they find it and they're like, oh, that's it.

Although to be fair in this case, if they didn't know your brand, they might search for eight later insights and see this artwork. And if they didn't know your brand, they might not know that this is the artwork, right? That this is the right show. But if they know your brand and what you're showing on this artwork is your brand. Then you can disregard what I just said, but if they don't know your brand, that might be an issue because I know you as the eighth layer insights guy, but I wouldn't see this and assume that was you.

But if I was somebody who was just casually perusing the apple podcast, or for example, or I was just searching or perusing the tech category, the it category of some podcast player or podcasts listing platform. If I saw this, I would have no idea what the show was about. I have an it background, but it's been awhile since I've been in that world. So I may be wrong about this, but ally to me is not an abbreviation. I know layer insights.

Like I would not. I would not assume that the infinity symbol is a weird symbol to use. I mean, certainly people are always a problem in it. So I, I get that if that's what you're trying to convey. But if I just look at this artwork, I have really no idea what it's about.

In fact, if I were going to make an assumption, I would probably say it was Saifai. I would get a scifi vibe off of this. That's what I would think it was. Now you have the title of the podcast, eighth layer insights that perhaps suggests something to someone in it. But there are people who may want to hear this podcast who wouldn't necessarily get what the podcast was about, just because of the name.

Now, I don't know who you're going for Perry. If you're going for industry professionals, you can disregard that. And there's a really good chance that they would understand what this meant because in cybersecurity, the eighth layer is kind of ubiquitous. They understand what that means, but if you're going for like consumer level or end use, you're trying to educate eighth layer. Doesn't really tell me what the podcast is about.

I wouldn't be able to put it together. I would know. So the artwork has an important job here for people like that. It has to convey what the title doesn't necessarily say about it, because remember when people are scrolling through and let's just say, they're scrolling through apple podcasts, all they're going to see on apple podcasts, for example, is the artwork, the title of the podcast. And then maybe two to four words before that description is truncated.

And so if they saw your artwork, they might guess it has something to do with cybersecurity or it, they might see that they'd see the name eight layer insights, but the only text they'll see is Perry carpenter. And I'm looking at this right now, Perry carpenter, vertical pipe, cyber wire, without the E, and then it's truncated. So they're seeing this artwork, they're seeing a name that doesn't necessarily suggest what the show is, and they're seeing your name and the word cyber wire, less the E. So my suggestion with this artwork is you've got to do something to help the artwork communicate what the show is. Maybe just a subtitle in the artwork that says a cybersecurity podcast that can just exist on the artwork.

It doesn't have to exist in the title or the description. You can just put that on the artwork. And then I might have a better chance of understanding what the podcast was. If I had no idea what it was about, I'm also confused by the infinity sign. I don't mind that it's being used, but this is almost written like an element on the periodic table.

That's why I think I would lean towards more thinking this was a scifi podcast, maybe a storytelling scifi related podcast, or an audio drama. Then I would think it was about it. So I think you might want to rethink the artwork. I don't want to give too much direction there. I know I just gave a lot of input and it may have seemed a little harsh.

I hope it didn't, but I don't want to tell you how to fix this. I just think the artwork needs to do more to communicate what the program is about. Now, we're going to listen to the first two minutes of the episode that Perry sent in, and we're going to talk about the audio quality and whether or not I think some improvements could be made.

Perry Carpenter	10:12
Hi, I'm Perry carpenter, and you're listening to eighth layer insights, just a quick note for anyone new to the show. And maybe if you've even been with me since the beginning, this episode is going to be a bit different. It's going to have a different format, a different tone theme, and maybe even a bit more. So let me explain. The usual format of the show is to take a full episode and explore a single topic.

And that episode usually features between three and four different experts to help in that exploration. But here's what you may not realize as you listen to those episodes, you might hear a guest talk for maybe 10 to 15 minutes in total. That's the time that they get. But here's the thing that 10 to 15 minutes is usually just a selected portion of a harsher discussion that generally lasts upwards of an hour. And what that means is that there's tons of great stories or interesting little bits that you never have a chance to hear.

They get left on the proverbial cutting room for. So I've been thinking for a while about some interesting ways to bring some of those stories and clips to you. And I finally came up with something that I wanted to try. So today's episode is clips from the vault and I'm presenting it. And what I hope is a fun and entertaining format.

And I'll tell you more about that. After this welcome to eighth layer insights. This podcast is a multidisciplinary exploration into the complexities of human nature and how those complexities impact everything from. We think the things that we think to why we do the things that we do and how we can all make better decisions every day. This is eighth layer insights, season two, episode two I'm Perry carpenter.

Tanner Campbell	12:10
All right. So here's what I like. Great setting of expectations. Perry. I know that this episode is a little different than your normal format, and you've got some specific questions that you asked when you submitted this and I'll get to those at the end of this episode, but wow, I love how you set the listeners expectations right up front.

Loved it. I also love the use of that click, that audible click right at the beginning as if you're hitting record on an old cassette recorder. I don't know where I learned it, but someone told me once, and I've applied this in podcast and production. Since that, when you want someone to pay special attention to something within a scene, whether it's the beginning of the scene, the middle or the end, you want to get a nice chime, a tone that will draw their attention. In the example of the person who was telling me this, it was a singing bowl, and I've used that in the past a great effect.

You do it right at the outset with that click, that gets my attention. It's super clear. I'm like, what are we clicking? What's he doing? Is he loading something?

Is he putting something in? Somebody's like plugging something in what's going on here. This is kind of cool. And then your voice comes in and your voice sounds great. However, and I know the gear you're using, you're using a UAD seven.

That's a massively expensive mic. You're in a booth a little bit like mine. Yours is actually a little larger than mine. You got the next level up. So you're in a great space.

You've got a great microphone. I think your voice is a little too flat. I think you're being too aggressive with your low end. Roll-off I'm not sure why you're doing that. There may be a reason maybe outside your booth, you've got something that's low frequency and it's getting into the booth.

And so you're compensating for that by taking your low cut, filter up a bit. I think it's too high. It sounds like it's up around 90 or one 20. I would bring that down a bit. I think you could sound a little deeper, a little fuller, a little warmer, the sound design, and it is pristine.

Do like you did such a great job with this. You do a great job with your show in general. I love the musical elements. I love the little scifi type tones and beeps that are happening in the background. It feels like I'm on a spaceship.

Like I really liked that. Well, not a spaceship, but it feels like I'm in outer space. It feels very cybersecurity. I love the feel. I love the sound design, the storytelling elements.

Let me talk about those. I've heard other episodes of your as Perry and you didn't just do that here. You do that in all your shows. I think you're great at putting your episodes together from a production and storytelling standpoint. I don't think you need any help there.

Trust your gut. It's obviously working for you. The overall sound quality is great. I don't think you need to do anything differently. The balance between the noise underneath the narration is perfect.

Again, the storytelling is great. The EEQ of the sound design is good. I don't know if you're modifying it, but it sounds wonderful. The only thing I would change is your low cut filter. I think you've got it way too.

I think it's too far up. I think you need to take it back down to maybe 80 or 60 or 55, whatever you can get away with. I'm actually going to cut in a little piece here where I'm going to eat Q your first few words, and then I'm going to compare it to what it was before I'm going to play it flat. And then I'm going to play it with the IQ change. I'm going to play it flat again.

I want you to hear that difference. I think it should sound warmer. I think that would sound better.

Perry Carpenter	15:13
Hi, I'm Perry carpenter and you're listening to eighth layer insights. Hi, I'm period carpenter. And you're listening to eighth layer insights. Hi, I'm Perry carpenter and you're listening to eighth layer insights.

Tanner Campbell	15:26
I realized that that probably doesn't sound immensely different. If you're wearing headphones, you've probably picked it up a little bit better. That's addressed to everybody, not just to you Perry, you probably heard it just fine, but that extra bit of warmth between about 90 Hertz and somewhere around 150 Hertz or so that boost I gave it, I lifted the low end back up. I think that that small boost is going to do something to make you sound less flat when compared to those cinematic music elements that you have mixed in, because those are not mastered with aggressive high pass filters or low end roll offs because their music, they're not going to be that way. Another way you could deal with this, if you wanted to was you could apply a low end roll-off to the music so that it became a little less warm and a little less flat, and then things would sound more similar in that low end regard.

Now let's get to the questions that Perry asks specifically, number one, production, quality editing, sound, design levels, et cetera. I already went over that Perry. You're killing it. This sounds great. Next does it keep the listener engaged?

I know we didn't listen to the full episode in this pod out that we would never do that, but I've listened to the full episode in my own time. And I've listened to other episodes Perry and yes, it keeps the listener engaged. Now that's where the caveat that the listener gives a shit about cybersecurity, but if they don't, they're not your concern. Anyway, if you're interested in cybersecurity and you've listened to this podcast and you have an appreciation for storytelling delivery, you know, like that NPR style, that narrative nonfiction, you're going to love this. And I think that that is what most people like and what they expect from high-quality productions.

And yours is definitely that pair. You're doing a great job. Perry also asked, did this one-off format work as a way of achieving my goals. Paranthetically to use some previously unaired interview segments. We didn't get to that.

But yes, I do think it did that. This was to me the way this is going to be a strange analogy. I think I hope everybody follows, but my two sisters and I lived with my dad who was a single dad. And we were pretty poor. I mean, he probably made like 90 or a hundred thousand dollars a year, but he also had three kids.

Two of them needed braces. One of them was constantly breaking shit. I'll let you guess who was who in those scenarios. And so we didn't have a lot of money to just spread around extra. He worked really hard, but there weren't a lot of like opulent moments when I was growing up, right?

Like we didn't go on big, expensive vacations. We rarely ever went on vacations. And an exciting summer for us was like, dad could afford to send us to the city sponsored summer camp for the summer. You know, we could go to like rapids, water park, and part of not having too much money growing up is that you, you know, you eat a lot of home cooked meals. And my dad's favorite home cooked meal was either chicken cacciatore or spaghetti and marinara sauce.

So we ate a lot of chicken cacciatore and a lot of spaghetti. And sometimes we get that low of a, you know, garlic bread that you'd get in the freezer section at Publix or wherever you shopped for whatever grocery store you have. And that was like a good week. We're like, oh yeah, we get the crunchy stuff with a good garlic butter on it. Oh man, that was the best.

But most of the time we were usually putting like wonder bread in the toaster and Britain putting me with like garlic butter on it, which was really just garlic salt and some regular butter. We would pretend that that was like our CR that was our garlic bread. Most of the time, anyway, all that to say my dad would, at the end of the meal, he would always like SOP up the extra sauce. We never did that as kids, but he would do it. And your episode, I don't know why this is a really strange analogy.

Perry. I apologize for everybody else. Listening was probably laughing at me now, but the way my dad stopped up that extra sauce with that bread is kind of like what you're doing with this format. You're sopping up all those missed opportunities and getting a whole nother meal out of it or getting an extra little meal out of it. And I think that's pretty cool.

I think he did a really great job. And I'm so sorry for that fucking analogy. Moving on. No other questions from Perry, Perry. I think you did an absolutely fucking great job.

I think you do a great job. I think I hope that, you know, you do a good job or you at least have that suspicion. You put a lot of work into this. You really do good work. And I think that the cybersecurity and security community at large is very lucky to have someone like you creating content of this quality for them.

And thank you for submitting it so openly for a public podcast audit. I really appreciate that. And I hope everyone else appreciates hearing my thoughts on it. And maybe you'll get some new listeners out of it. Who knows if you would like to have your podcast reviewed in the same way in this pod audit program that I'm doing on Mondays, just tag me on Twitter.

Use the hashtag pod audit, go to Podcasting Sucks dot com forward slash pod audit, P O D a U D I T. And that will take you to a form that you can fill out and upload your episode and your artwork and your description so that I have all those things. Now you might say, Tanner, can you just go get that stuff yourself? You lazy bastard. And I would say very kindly to you, are you fucking nuts?

I do this podcast every day and it is one of many things I do every day. And I need your help in making the pot out of program successful. So if you use the form, add all that information, I review it and I listen to it. We can work together to make this a segment that can be consistent and always there on Mondays. And that's really what I want.

So thank you again, Perry. I appreciate you submitting your podcast for pod audit. Everybody go listen to eight layer insights. If it sounded interesting to you, and that is all I've got for you today. So if I've been helpful, please consider leaving me a tip by going to buy me a coffee.com forward slash 10 or helps.

If you'd like to submit your podcast to the indie drop-in program, please go to Indy drop-in dot com forward slash creators links in the description of this. And lastly, I just hope you have a great Monday. I hope you had a good weekend and until next time take care,

Perry Carpenter

Thought Leader / Author

Perry Carpenter is an internationally recognized thought leader in the area of security awareness, security behavior management practices, and social engineering. In 2019, Perry released Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors.